P1 of 4
[apologies to the mods for the very very long post. it is too long then pls just part 1 and 2. i will post a link to the rest on my blog]
Guys, I say again that on male crossdressing forums the consensus of many many different men, who wear 'women's clothing' for different reasons is that wearing 'women's clothing' greatly reduces a mans chances of finding a woman partner. That is the counsel given to men when they post asking what are the chances of finding a woman partner. And it is not uncommon to read of men with women partners saying they are only allowed to dress when their partner is out of the house, the partner does not want to see it, or want to deal with it at all.
With regard to the men. These are masc through to feminine men, of differing political leanings etc. Gay, bi, and straight men. In discussions ive seen references to a couple of crossdresser surveys suggesting 10% are gay, 45% are bi, and 45% are straight
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They hold to what the public considers is masc or femme. They are not gender warriors, and have little understanding of gender issues and discussion eg if i was to say a stockings and suspenders can be worn by men or women, that they are a genderless item. Most xcrossdresser(except fashion freedomers), like the public, and most on here including feminists, would look at me like i was veryvery confused. These men are not feminist or feminist influenced.
They are like sahd's, sahp's just ordinary men(like me) and women, who are deciding to live a different manner. Feminist men n women are underrepresented in living in those worlds, outside the victoedwardian manbox
[which contrasts with the smashin of the victoedwardian (traditional)'female box', where feminist women were certainly wellrepresented in the numbers going into victoedwardian jobs, mensdress, behaviour, role, bodies, faces and unisexing them.
The West did not go to sleep one day and wake up the next day, with virtually all of the victoedwardian ('trad masculine') mensdress, behaviour, jobs, role, bodies, faces suddenly being unisex. Women, feminist women at the front, went out there into these fields and made them unisex.
For all the talk about the victoedwardian 'man box' very few feminists actually do venture outside into the badlands outside it.
And if the men are hetero they are 'sensible' not too, if they want a woman partner.
When one young feminist man realised what climbing out the man box would entai. 'the clothes wont fit, the clothes wont fit, the clothes wont fit', he shouted while running his arse off back to the 'dreaded manbox'. I left him as he was climbing over the barbed wire of the manbox with a size 16 stiletto heel on his unaware foot. When it comes to relationships as a regular feminist commenter here has noted hetero feminist women do not differ markedly from the general public when it comes to desired traits in their male partners)]
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So few men wear women's clothing.
Where else, (other than functions, dances, club nights, dinners) are men going to learn about the lived experiences of men who wear women's clothing. Certainly not the nightly news, or the local pub.
Male crossdressing forums are the best, the primary medium, and repository in which to find fellowship and understanding, in which to discuss their fears, and find answers from other men who wear 'women's clothing'.
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P2 of 4
Further, what the pro domme doesnt know as shes not part of the xdressing community is actually a prejudice against the fetishers she's described and are her clients, and also against men who dont go 'enfemme' (to look as much like as woman as possible).
Personally how I perceive the hierarchy, plus or minus points awarded to passing as a woman, and also whether one goes out in public 'dressed':
At the bttm, Div4: men who just wear women underpants, they are seen as fetishers or not really trying to 'dress'. Also men who are mainly fetishers eg mostly wear little bo peeb dresses, schoolgirl uniforms, french maid outfits, whipme wear.
Div3: then men who wear women clothing but dont go enfemme, like me.
No Div 2.
The top tier, Div1: men who go enfemme, and also trans women.
It is funny to see trans women come down from the clouds and beat sense into the tv's that think being a trans woman is about being a tv enfemme 24/7. A tv and a trans woman are two completely different people
some of the reasons i have seen listed for men wearing womens clothing.
(random_stranger over a year ago, i saw you ask in post not addressed to me, why men would. I wasnt in the mood to write at the time. As its hours of writing and hunting through my notes for links this whole post)
1. Like the look of clothes on the hourglassy woman's body. breast forms, hipshapers are sometimes used to achieve they look they want to effect. tucking to hide the male genitals
women did the reverse in the flapper era
The women of the 1920s bound their breasts and hips to look like men, madeup the eye area.
Flappers defined their faces, women's faces became more defined than men. Thus started this century long era of the female face being more defined than the testosterone defined male face. women cut their hair in then male styles - the bob was called the dutchBOY, the eton crop from eton public schoolboys. The flapper look was called the 'garçonne ' ["boy" with a feminine suffix]
youtube 1920/30s vid. at 59seconds, she turns around to the camera to reveal the short hair is on a woman, because then short hair was as masculine as our beards
http://bit.ly/YmWPDT
youtube vid, how men look in flapper clothing, from 2:04 to 2:54 men enfemme in 1920s gear
http://bit.ly/17s1mY7
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from this ideal woman camille clifford 1906
http://bit.ly/11WERbd
to this complete opposite ideal woman.
Louise 'dutchboy' Brookes 1926
http://bit.ly/12Mrr0v
http://bit.ly/ZaeD42
http://bit.ly/10UUr3i
seems to be brookes bare, without the eyebrows etc defined.
http://bit.ly/12Kg78O
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'The claim of women to equality with men is understandable, but that so many of them should wish to imitate the appearance of the less beauteous sex is not so easy to understand. It began with bobbing, and reached its logical hirsute conclusion in the Eton crop. And, having lost her hair, many a girl is now making strenuous attempts to lose her curves. And concurrently with these changes the conquest of trousers had been steadily proceeding…although mere man may regret the lose of feminine furbelows more than he resents the theft of his trousers, he realises that it is useless to rail against the spirit of the age. Whether we like it or not, girls will be boys.'
24 June 1931 Daily Sketch
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HtMnFtUIAKwC&pg=PA54
Within 20yrs western men accepted 'enhomme' (male body, male face) in women, certainly more easily than they accepted them in other parts of the then male realm. Given history, i actually believe that men who have an attraction to women would even accept a full beard and a 10inch clitcumpenis, as long as the vulva and vagina was kept. Contrast that to the rejection of enfemme in men by most western women.
From the 'traditional' ie. victoedwardian perspective. While modern man be would considered softer than their own men, they would still be men. Modern woman is a female transvestite, or even a feminine man according to their world view
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2. Like the more expressive expanded choice available. 'Drab'- mens clothing is limited. The greater range of fabric and cuts eg. Few mens clothes fit as tight as some clothing available for women.
Eg. Women's trousers have low crotch or high crotched variants, 'woman hipped to 'man' hipped. And 'wide thighed' trousers - mine eyes popped out of my head 3yrs ago when i saw that range in mark n spencers. While i was there trying on a top, a young male and a woman retail assistant were laughing off their heads. I impassively turned my head towards them, and they walked off tittering away. The young man thinks the older woman was laughing at me, however both of them werent aware that she was laughing at how easily she ruled men, and the both of them were laughing at his own castration
3. To allow them to access their 'feminine' side, 'softer emotions'.
4. Stress relief eg getting dressed, painting the face, hair removal or treating the face, body, etc. 'Dressing' is therapeutic in its time involvement and focus. Eg. For me it is more hassle to put on one crotch leggings, then another crotchless leggings or tights, then put on my boxer shorts(i dont like how my thighs rub together going commando, and how it generates sweat), then my pocketed bumlength mini underskirt, over which goes my kneelength skirt. Than it is to wear women's trousers or skintight jeans, and a skirt.
However for those that 'dress' as stress relief they would find the more involved process calming, meditative.
5. Fetish eg. The prodommes clients
6. To roleplay
7. Sexual arousal
8. To become someone else, to adopt a different persona
9. To be themselves
10. Like the feel of the fabric on their skin eg tights, leggings feel fantastic on my skin
11. That the arbitrary binary in clothing is odd. In the belief that men can wear anything they want eg. Freestylers.
12. To look beautiful/ adorn themselves
13. Just like a particular item eg men on the 'men wearing skirt' sites
14. To feel desireable, desired:
(i did not separate feeling desireable from beautifying themselves.
can beautify to just look beautiful.
or can beautify to become more desireable)
In a man these reasons can be found singularly, or in various combinations
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p3 of 4
the young prodomme has a very limited understanding about the world of crossdressing men. That is clear to me from her language, from how she speaks on it. She is a fetishist, her frame of reference for crossdressing is mainly through fetish due to her work and sexual practice, which has skewed her understanding.
When directly addressing my crossdressing post.
Observe, how her first sentence associates crossdressing with fetish - certainly raised my eyes.
'I used to beg my first boyfriend to dress up in a school girl outfit for me, plead with him to get him into dresses. (he did it sometimes but was very withholding about it)' Wtf, i dont blame him for declining, i or most tv's certainly would not wear a schoolgirl outfit either - it is, an er niche kinkysex fetishwear article.
the fetishist that she deals with, cares less about dress, than about the symbolic meaning of the clothing and what they mean to him personally, so thats why she sees 'I see a lot of crossdressers in my line of work and most are HORRIBLE with makeup and have the world’s worst fashion sense.'
That she persists in equatintg her tiny small unrepresentative number of crossdresser fetisher clients with how the multitudes of men online describe their experiences, is a nonsense, and a special kind of arrogance.
The overwhelming majority of crossdressers do not wear fetishwear(certainly not for the majority of their time 'dressed') as she would have you believe, just everyday ordinary women's clothing in accordance with their personal taste, style, and demeanor - well dressed too. Those that go enfemme (to look as much as a woman as possible. Eg to paint their face as well as wear womens clothing) take great care in their makeup and if they choose to wear them, breast forms, hip shapers.
On the forums, blogs and youtube, people share freely how to apply various makeup, deal with body facial hair, anything you can off with regard to crossdressing.
Anyone is free to go to crossdressing forums, to register, and see our many many photos and of the profile pages, club nights, dinners, functions to confirm this
prodomme: 'Admittedly he’s not a crossdresser in the traditional sense (no falsies, no wigs… just his own gorgeous mane of long blonde hair).'
an illinformed way to talk about going enfemme and the wearing of breast forms - 'falsies' indeed, and bodyshapers, hip pads etc. She would know the terms if she knew what she was talking about. This isnt about using language that laymen can understand, it is consistent with her ignorance about the male crossdressing world that she displayed throughout.
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prodomme: 'I don’t want to see balding men in a prom dress from the worst part of the 80s…'
again note the fetish lens thru which she views crossdressing men
prodomme: 'Basically it’s also that crossdressers (the kind who enjoy transvestism fetishistically in private) usually aren’t femme enough in public for the girls who like girly guys, glam rock dudes in heels, goth boys in dresses, these men have NO problem getting girls.'
basically the prodomme does not know what she is talking about. Both groups of men are wearing women's clothing, however for very different reasons. The two reasons are distinct. 'The kind who enjoy transvestism fetishistically in private' - note again her main lens of fetish. She is only familiar with her cofetishists.
The men who wear 'little bo peep' dresses or lipstick halfup their cheeks are doing so because of the symbolism, the clothes are imbued with a fetishistic aspect. They are not looking beautify themselves. It is a sexual practice.
If they wanted to beautify to adorn themselves then they would, and could quite easily look like 'glam rock dudes in heels'.
'girly guys, glam rock dudes in heels, goth boys in dresses'are wearing 'women's articles' primarily to beautify/adorn themselves (with goths it is slightly more involved than that)
now, are these men being 'femme' as prodomme and others believes?
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The victorian era decided to encode beautifying oneself, was suitable only for women. Before that era, it was less gendered in the west and also in many other parts of the world until victorian domination stripmined men the world over.
In November 1872. The Imperial court issued an ordinance that hence-forth Western clothing would he compulsory for government officials, and as the official ceremonial dress. The Emperor pronounced that,
'The national polity is indomitable. But manners and customs should be adaptable. We greatly regret that the uniform of our court has been established following the Chinese custom, and it has become exceed-ingly effeminate in style and character....The Emperor Jimmu [660- 585bce] who founded Japan and the Empress Jingu [201-69 ce] who conquered Korea were not attired in the present style. We should no longer appear before the people in these effeminate styles and have therefore decided to reform dress regulations entirely'
p109 to 118 'european or frankish' dress being adopted by japan, iran, ottoman empire in 19th century ce. Clothing: A Global History By Robert Ross
http://bit.ly/Yea59q
So now most think that to beautify, to adorn is to inherently feminise.
I say that they are actually not being femme, but are adorning, beautifying themselves. That they are not feminine men, but adorned masculine men. I call it 'adorned masculinity', 'flamboyant masculinity', or 'peacock masculinity' seen in men in many different eras across the world. The last period of this in the west was 1965to90, the age of the peacock eg the rock stars of that glorious era 'so masculine that they can wear this'
this peacock masculinity has similarities, with 'refined masculinity' and its cultivation of, the refinement of: a mans beauty, his body, his mind, his fortitude. To bring them into a more perfect state of existence.
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P4 of 4
common 'trad femininity' enforcement experiences in men:
Mark Neilsays:December 22, 2012 at 11:41 am
As the man speaking to Brene Brown mentioned, it is my experience that women are the brutal ones regarding enforcing the vulnerable male = weak mindset. Examining the relationships of my friends parents, and other similar elders, as well as older TV shows and movies, you will see that men expressing emotion, being vulnerable, has it’s place. Yes, men are expected to hold it in at certain times, but vulnerability has always been accepted in the right times for the right reasons… among men. But we’ve lost that in recent generations. With this fatherless generation, the boys (and girls) growing up haven’t been taught when boys are allowed to be vulnerable, instead the demand for perpetual strength has been shoved upon them, and that is an unsustainable state.
Thorsays:December 23, 2012 at 2:27 pm
“it is my experience that women are the brutal ones regarding enforcing the vulnerable male = weak mindset”
Experience has taught me to feel far safer being vulnerable with other men rather than women. Esepcially if it is a woman I am dating. The standard reaction from women to real vulnerability and real displays of weakness in men is contempt as long as it is in a sexual relationship. It is NOT by acident that pickup artists use the alpha male model to such great success and not the sensitive new age guy.
Http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-good-life-the-uniform-of-gender/#AXpWYCJAWBurQPS9.99
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regarding girly men, listen to the thoughts of what i consider to be a 'girlyman', a feminine man:
SteveDelaney says: February 9, 2013 at 1:37 pm
'This article contains many wise observations and concludes that gender stereotypes are rather ridiculous for men or women. Yet for me it was slightly unsatisfying. The author illuminated her partner’s many admirable characteristics but seemed to feel she had to back them up with sturdy boasts about his masculine attributes. It is as if she is saying “he is so masculine, he has room to be girly” which is surely not the point of her writing. Our society needs to realize how deeply these expectations for men are held, so deeply that they are rarely questioned, even rarely recognized. We are all aware of the repression heaped on women’s roles, but we are only beginning to question the repression forced upon men. This can be seen on any playground. A girl who exhibits traditionally male characteristics is given a kind of admiration and called a tomboy. “She is as good as a boy!” A boy who exhibits traditionally female characteristics is called a sissy and scorned by everyone, parents, teachers and schoolmates alike. I was one of those boys.' http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-manliest-man-i-know-is-also-the-girliest/comment-page-1/#comment-452362
prodomme: 'I do like a partner (I’m bisexual) who’s stronger than me, but I’m not very physically strong so it’s more a convenience thing there (somebody has to open jars, and I’ve never managed to open one myself because I have absurdly small hands).
[..]
I like a man who’s tough as I am...
[..]
I like my men dominant in bed'
given how the pro domme described the men she is attracted to,
she does not even like feminine men herself. She thinks she likes feminine men when infact she actually likes masculine men. To be by her side have the trad masc traits of,' being dominant in bed, tough, strong(sorry, he needs to be strong just to open jars for her...)'.
Trad femininity that aint! It is not unreasonable to assume her eyelining, long haired husband is 'dominant in bed, tough, strong'.
She likes adorned beautified masculine men, not feminine men whether they are adorned or not.
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prodomme: 'girly guys, glam rock dudes in heels, goth boys in dresses,'
and what is the current degree of gender transgression regarding these groups?
Now, in the uk
'girly guys' wearing eyeliner and lipstick with mens clothing would be seen as intersting selfexpression, slightly odd thats all. A bit of joshing from the lads.
'Glam rock dudes in heels', if she is talking about riding/cuban/cowboy heels - totally unremarkable.
'Goth boys in dresses', would be seen as, 'well he is a goth, they do that sort of thing'
rock and goth uniforms have been known to the public for 40 and 30yrs respectively.
Infact these things, perhaps even the goth in a dress given goths well known alternative tastes, i would question whether they are seen as 'womanly' clothing. Very mild beer.
All these things in the uk would certainly be less disconcerting, much less trangressive to the public than a man wearing a skirt and tights.
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The young prodomme asserts that plenty of women like feminine men. Fellas, does that comport with the experience of your eyes?
She believes likes girly men, when infact she likes adorned masculine men.
And the prodomme does not know what she is talking about, when it comes to the malecrossdressing world. Nothing at all.
The consensus of many many different men, who wear 'women's clothing' for different reasons is that wearing 'women's clothing' greatly reduces a man's chances of finding a woman partner.
agree with you rs.
i raised my eyes at the socialisation part too. reminded me of the recent piece here by guy that does not stand to piddle, as he saw this act as assertion of masculinity.
a good number of feminist men seem to have a tortured relationship with their bodies, their manhood, their masculinity.
the self hatred is notable